Let’s start with the title: what does “triangle of sadness” refer to?
Ruben Östlund: It’s a term used in the beauty industry. A friend sat next to a plastic surgeon at a party and, after a quick look at her face, he said, “Oh, you have a quite deep triangle of sadness… but I can fix that with Botox in 15 minutes”. He was referring to a wrinkle between her eyebrows. In Swedish it’s called ‘trouble wrinkle’ and it suggests you’ve had a lot of struggles in your life. I thought it said something about our era’s obsession with looks and that inner wellbeing is, in some respects, secondary.
FORCE MAJEURE was set in a ski resort and THE SQUARE in the contemporary art world. Why did you decide to set TRIANGLE OF SADNESS in the world of fashion?
Ruben Östlund: I did some research into the fashion world in 2018, when I collaborated with my friend Per Andersson and developed a small line of clothing for his Swedish menswear label Velour. I also gained a detailed insider’s take on the industry through my partner, Sina, who is a fashion photographer. When we met, she told me a lot about the marketing strategies for different fashion brands and also about working conditions for models. For example, a male model generally earns only a third of what a female model does.
I thought it would be interesting to look at these differences through the main characters, a male and a female model called Carl and Yaya.
When I started to do research for the film, numerous male models told me that they often have to manoeuvre past powerful homosexual men in the industry who want to sleep with them, sometimes with the promise of a more successful career. In some respects, being a male model mirrors what women have to deal with in a patriarchal society.
So you are interested in how beauty has economical value, whether it’s in the fashion world or in the ‘normal’ world?
Ruben Östlund: Yes! That was the initial idea. Our looks are one of the fundamental things we have to deal with as human beings. The way we look affects every social encounter. The fact that looks play such a key role in society is something of a universal inequality, but on the other hand you can be born beautiful wherever you come from and that beauty can be used to climb the socioeconomic ladder in a class based society.
A running joke for the female models is that when their modelling career is over, they always can marry rich men and become trophy wives – something that is not really possible for the male models.
Ergo once again using the sociological gaze as a way into an idea?
Ruben Östlund: As with all my films, my starting point is to look at human behaviour. Many scenes in TRIANGLE OF SADNESS have a connection to a sociological study or an anecdote that I think highlights something from a behaviouristic point of view.
There is one study in particular that I thought was extremely interesting: scientists observing zebras in the African savanna were trying to figure out why their fur is black and white when they live in the savanna. Wouldn’t it be better if their fur was as yellow as the sandy savanna? Studying individual zebras proved almost impossible as they disappeared into the herd, so a red dot was sprayed onto an individual zebra, making it easier to follow. However, the red dot made it stand out and it was almost immediately taken by lions. The scientists quickly realised that the black and white pattern is not about hiding in the environment, but rather about hiding in the herd.
The scientists drew parallels to us humans and pointed out something fascinating about the fashion industry. We use our clothes to try and hide in the social group to which we are connected. Our clothes are our camouflage. Just think about the concerns we have when we are going to a fancy evening party; we really don’t want to be over- or underdressed. If we get it wrong we feel exposed. From an economical perspective it really makes sense that fashion brands create new collections all the time. Then we have to change our clothes more often and consume more.
It’s no accident that I called the fashion line I created for Velour ‘Discreet Bourgeoisie’. One of the pieces was the “Lumière Tuxedo”, which I named in homage to the cinema in Cannes where I was awarded the Palme d’Or for THE SQUARE in 2017. You can wear the tuxedo as a kind of camouflage amongst the educated middle-class. In the Lumière tuxedo, you can hide in the Cannes herd very efficiently!
You also address issues of gender roles and behavioural expectations, primarily with Carl and Yaya when they argue about who should pay for dinner at the start of the film.
Ruben Östlund: The restaurant scene is inspired by my own experience with Sina. Near the start of our relationship, I wanted to impress her and invited her to Cannes. I paid the bill for dinner the first, second, and third night and then I thought, “Fuck, I have to take the bull by the horns and have a discussion about this. I like her too much to step into the role of man and woman, where the man always pays the bill.” What you see in the film is what happened between us: the argument took place in the Martinez lift; her stuffing the €50 bill in my shirt and me freaking out and yelling; me sitting in a room alone, thinking, “Now I’ve ruined this relationship” and then the sincere discussion we had when she finally returned. We were finally ready to expose ourselves, to make ourselves vulnerable and grow closer as a result.
What did you want to show by putting Carl and Yaya on a super yacht?
Ruben Östlund: I knew that I wanted the last part of the film to take place on a deserted island so the yacht was a way of getting there and bringing some interesting characters along – the model couple, some billionaires and a cleaning lady. On the island, when it turns out that the cleaning lady knows how to fish and make a fire, the old hierarchy is turned upside down.
I understand your mother was a communist? What kind of values did she instil in you in your formative years?
Ruben Östlund: She is still a communist. She was a primary school teacher and a painter, as such, was a very encouraging mother. Her method was basically to be supportive and say, “Wow, that’s great!” It didn’t matter what I drew, it was fantastic.
I think it helped me to trust myself when I make artistic decisions. I grew up on a small island called Styrsö on the west coast of Sweden, and not many on the island had the same left-wing politics as my parents. Mum had books by both Marx and Lenin and when friends came round, I’d turn the Lenin books around so that the spines were hidden. I understood that they were controversial in the eyes of others.
You decided to make the captain of the ship in TRIANGLE OF SADNESS a Marxist…
Ruben Östlund: I would say he’s an idealist, an alcoholic, and a Marxist.
In that order?
Ruben Östlund: In whatever order you want! I had an idea that the captain should host the captain’s dinner, a seven-course meal, on the same evening as a storm approaches. The passengers get seasick and the captain becomes so drunk that he starts to read from “The Communist Manifesto” over the speaker system while the guest are puking. The captain had to be an idealist, an alcoholic and a Marxist for that to be possible.
The scenes in which Dimitriy’s wife and others vomit copiously during high seas is, I presume, a way of avenging them for their obscene wealth?
Ruben Östlund: Yes, but I also wanted it to be the turning point; the audience should feel that they have suffered enough and want them to be saved.
What are your feelings about the ultra-rich?
Ruben Östlund: I am interested in how we react when we are spoilt. For example, when I fly business class, I behave differently to when I fly economy. I sit there and read more slowly and drink more slowly as I watch passengers heading for economy class. It is almost impossible to not be affected by privilege.
Are you saying it’s human nature for the super-rich to behave in a privileged, spoilt manner?
Ruben Östlund: I believe that rich people are nice. Successful people are often very socially skilled otherwise they wouldn’t be so successful. There’s an ongoing myth that successful and rich people are horrible, but it’s reductive. I wanted the sweet old English couple to be the most sympathetic characters in the film. They are nice and respectful to everyone – they just happen to have made their money on landmines and hand grenades. It’s probably a more accurate description of what the world looks like.
Your films are very much rooted in European cinema, but TRIANGLE OF SADNESS is your first English-language film. Did you find the process challenging?
Ruben Östlund: Yes, because there are nuances that I don’t know about in the English language that I know in Swedish. Having said that, my scenarios and themes are simple, and they have a universality, so it is easy for the actors to relate to them. I always work in the same way: during casting and rehearsals, I improvise the scenes with the actors; and I later use some of that material in the script when it is better than the original dialogue. If I am working with English-speaking actors, they can fill in any gaps I may have and make the language richer, more nuanced and so on.
But I am ambivalent about making films in English since I’m critical about the dominance of Anglo-Saxon culture. It’s absurd what kind of influence it has over Sweden and Scandinavia.
Directors often talk about having ‘good’ or ‘bad’ luck when shooting – do you feel that you were blessed with TRIANGLE OF SADNESS?
Ruben Östlund: It was interesting. Just before we started to shoot in Greece, conflict was building between Turkey and Greece and we started to get nervous about that. Then, on the first day of the shoot, a storm was coming in and we were supposed to do a long tracking shot on a beach. At that point we decided, “Let’s go with the weather. If that’s the weather, then that’s how the scene is going to play out. Let’s use what we have.” And I found that a happy go-lucky kind of attitude made us much more relaxed, and very often issues solved themselves. Apart from the storm, we were very fortunate with the weather.
We shot the exteriors on Christina O, the old Onassis yacht, which turned out to add quite a fun meta layer when we blew her up. That yacht is such a strong symbol of the elite of the 60s and 70s, and myriad famous, powerful men like Churchill have spent a lot of time on her. So we had nine days on the yacht, which was very expensive, and Covid was getting closer and closer and another lockdown was looming. In fact, we just managed to finish the shooting on the day before we went into another lockdown. Had the lockdown come a few days earlier, I don’t know how we could have finished the film.
This is a rhetorical question really, but can films – and, in fact, culture in general – change society?
Ruben Östlund: Of course. You’d have to be a little stupid to think otherwise. My mentor, the Swedish film producer Kalle Boman, was asked by one of my fellow students at film school if films can change society. He answered: “All films change society”. And of course that in itself can be problematic.
In Sweden we have had a lot of young men killed in so-called gang shootings and in the cultural pages there is an ongoing debate about the extent of the influence of gangster rap on our behaviour. To answer yes to that question is not the same as being pro-censorship. We believe in freedom of speech, but we should also be aware of the consequences that this cultural expression might create.
Finally, do you see FORCE MAJEURE, THE SQUARE and TRIANGLE OF SADNESS as a loosely-connected trilogy exploring masculinity in modern times?
Ruben Östlund: Yes, I started to think about this when I was writing TRIANGLE OF SADNESS. All the men in these films are trying to deal with who they are supposed to be and what is expected of them. They are then put in a trap in order to see how they behave. For me, these three films have really been a way of setting up a dilemma for myself, of cornering myself. What would I do if I was dealing with this? As soon as the answer appears to be easy, then it’s not so interesting. But if it is hard, then I am interested.
See also:
A Conversation With Harris Dickinson – Carl in “Triangle of Sadness”
A Conversation With Charlbi Dean – Yaya in “Triangle of Sadness”
